Quantcast
  • Register
PhysicsOverflow is a next-generation academic platform for physicists and astronomers, including a community peer review system and a postgraduate-level discussion forum analogous to MathOverflow.

Welcome to PhysicsOverflow! PhysicsOverflow is an open platform for community peer review and graduate-level Physics discussion.

Please help promote PhysicsOverflow ads elsewhere if you like it.

News

PO is now at the Physics Department of Bielefeld University!

New printer friendly PO pages!

Migration to Bielefeld University was successful!

Please vote for this year's PhysicsOverflow ads!

Please do help out in categorising submissions. Submit a paper to PhysicsOverflow!

... see more

Tools for paper authors

Submit paper
Claim Paper Authorship

Tools for SE users

Search User
Reclaim SE Account
Request Account Merger
Nativise imported posts
Claim post (deleted users)
Import SE post

Users whose questions have been imported from Physics Stack Exchange, Theoretical Physics Stack Exchange, or any other Stack Exchange site are kindly requested to reclaim their account and not to register as a new user.

Public \(\beta\) tools

Report a bug with a feature
Request a new functionality
404 page design
Send feedback

Attributions

(propose a free ad)

Site Statistics

206 submissions , 164 unreviewed
5,106 questions , 2,251 unanswered
5,379 answers , 22,893 comments
1,470 users with positive rep
822 active unimported users
More ...

  Is it possible to recover that "energy is a torsor" in the Newtonian limit of GR?

+ 6 like - 0 dislike
66 views

As Baez explains, in the Newtonian framework, energy is a torsor. However, in GR, we have for a particular frame, certain energy conditions, which impose a belief that energy (density) should take a positive value (see also this question), and this also appears to be related to the question here asking why GR is sensitive to absolute energies. As Baez put it, a torsor is like a group that has forgotten its identity. I'm curious in this context, if it's possible to understand how this forgetting happens, both from a physics and group theory perspective, if it does.

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user qwerty
asked Jan 1 in Theoretical Physics by qwerty (30 points) [ no revision ]
retagged 12 hours ago
Related: more about "torsors" in physics.stackexchange.com/q/396082/226902 Also very closely related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/307560/226902

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user Quillo
also related: physics.stackexchange.com/q/789927 including a detailed related answer by @pglpm

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user qwerty

2 Answers

+ 0 like - 0 dislike

The physics answer can be seen by looking at the action including a cosmological constant $$ S = \frac{\Lambda c^4}{8\pi G} \int d^4 x \sqrt{-g} + \frac{c^4}{16\pi G}\int d^4 x \sqrt{-g} R + S_{\rm matter} + \cdots $$ where $c$ is the speed of light, $G$ is Newton's constant, $\Lambda$ is the cosmological constant, $S_{\rm matter}$ contains any matter fields (standard model particles), and the $\cdots$ allows for higher order terms.

The cosmological constant term is the first one, $\sim \Lambda \int d^4 x \sqrt{-g}$. You can see that if the metric $g$ is a dynamical field, meaning that we should compute its equation of motion and solve for it (like we do in general relativity), then there will be a term in the equations of motion proportional to $\Lambda$. Therefore, the "constant" term in the energy contributes to the dynamics of the system through the metric. On the other hand, if we fix the metric (which is what we do in special relativity), then $\Lambda$ will not appear in any of the equations of motion for the matter fields, and so the "constant" term in the energy does not contribute to the dynamics of the system.

I am not sure what you are looking for by a "group theory explanation." I think what you want to see is a smooth limit where the energy transitions from being a "1-d vector" to being a "torsor." I don't know if such a limit makes sense. But, at a looser, less precise level, what you can say is that if you make $G$ smaller and smaller (so gravity becomes less and less important), then it becomes harder and harder to see a cosmological constant (or, in other words, you need a larger and larger cosmological constant before you can observe any effect, for a fixed observational precision). As a crude model, say there is some $\Lambda_{\rm min}$ that is the minimum cosmological constant you can observe. If $\Lambda < \Lambda_{\rm min}$, then the constant term effectively doesn't contribute to any observations, and you can treat energy "like a torsor" (meaning, adding constants to the energy won't matter, so long as you stay below $\Lambda_{\rm min}$. If $\Lambda > \Lambda_{\rm min}$, then energy behaves "like a 1D vector", in that the actual value of the energy does matter (not just the value up to an overall constant). Then in the limit that gravity becomes unimportant ($G$ becomes large), $\Lambda_{\rm min}$ becomes larger and larger until you are always in the "torsor like" regime.

Well, that's actually the limit of a fixed metric, where gravity isn't present. You actually asked about Newtonian gravity, where the gravitational field is present but simply small. This case is actually a bit subtle. Without matter, the normal equation for the Newtonian potential $\phi$, without matter, is Laplace's equation $$ \nabla^2 \phi = 0 $$ If we take the Newtonian limit $c\rightarrow \infty$, and assume the background spacetime is Minkowski spacetime (eg, we are working in approximately special relativity with small gravity effects), and ignore the matter action, we can identify $g_{00}\approx -c^2 - 2\phi$ (as well as $g_{0i}\approx 0$ and $g_{ij}\approx \delta_{ij}$), and Laplace's equation get's modified.

What's going on is that the cosmological constant introduces a non-trivial gravitational background, and we strictly speaking can't expand around Minkowski space, because Minkowski isn't a solution of the background equations of motion. One way to think of it is that with a cosmological constant, we shouldn't require the normal asymptotic boundary conditions where $\phi$ falls off to $0$ at large $r$, but rather allow it to grow, to allow for the fact that the gravitational field grows at large distances. The most rigorous way to handle this situation to do is to include $\Lambda$ in the background equations of motion, in which case we will expand around de Sitter space (for a positive cosmological constant, or anti-de Sitter space for a negative cosmological constant) instead of Minkowski space, and then $\phi$ will obey an analogue of Laplace's equation suitable for de Sitter space (assuming a positive cosmological constant; anti-de Sitter space if the CC is negative). However, if we think of the cosmological constant as being "small", we can drop the extra cosmological constant term in Laplace's equation, and recover normal Newtonian gravity where the absolute value of the energy doesn't matter -- essentially "zooming in" to the region well within the horizon in de Sitter space.

The above description is a pretty condensed and informal description of some rigorous calculations that you can find in the literature. The punchline is that for a small cosmological constant, if we're only interested in "local" observations (like the solar system), where the cosmological horizon is irrelevant, then at least as far as the cosmological constant goes, the Newtonian limit behaves a lot like the limit of a fixed metric where the gravitational field is kind of like a matter field that simply decouples from the cosmological constant. This decoupling is what allows energy to move from "vector like" to "torsor like".

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user Andrew
answered Jan 3 by Andrew (135 points) [ no revision ]
Thanks very much for the detailed response, @Andrew! I will take some time to digest it, but I noticed you focused on the vacuum energy, and did not mention the energy conditions or the positive energy theorem in your answer? I believe those apply regardless of if a cosmological constant is present, would you know how they fit in?

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user qwerty
@qwerty Can you say more about how you expect the energy conditions to play a role on the question of whether or not energy is a torsor? I think I can see how the cosmological constant plays a role, since in GR the numerical value of energy has a physical meaning, whereas in non-gravitational physics or even Newtonian gravity, the numerical value of energy does not. I'm sure I am just missing something but at the moment it's not clear to me how the energy conditions are related.

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user Andrew
@qwerty I think I might see what you're saying. A more physical way of saying "energy is a torsor" is that in pre-GR physics, the absolute value of energy doesn't matter, only energy differences. In GR, we have energy conditions which say things like energy density should be positive (weak energy condition), which does depend on an absolute value of energy, so what happens to that in the Newtonian limit? The energy conditions are normally used to put constraints on the curvature tensor, which are then used to constrain the causal structure of the spacetime. Basically Newtonian gravity (...)

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user Andrew
(...) doesn't have an analogue of causal structure, since there is a notion of absolute time when $c\rightarrow \infty$, and so while you could still talk about the energy conditions, they will no longer imply anything about the dynamics of gravity, so they lose their meaning.

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user Andrew
yes, that's more or less what I meant... hmmm that's very interesting, as iirc the answers at the linked question on interpreting energy conditions didn't mention causal structure as the physical interpretation. I will think on it a bit more.

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user qwerty
p.s. I'm sorry that someone gave you a "drive-by" downvote to your thoughtful answer: it is unhelpful to both of us to not leave comment on why they didn't like it!

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user qwerty
@qwerty You can interpret the energy conditions purely in terms of the matter content. So it's entirely possible an answer would discuss what the energy conditions "mean" without describing causal structure. But the reason we define the energy conditions is to use them, eg in proving the Penrose-Hawking singularity theorems. You could write down the energy conditions in Newtonian gravity, but I'm not sure you could use them to prove anything interesting within Newtonian gravity (and they are probably not even well defined because only energy differences matter).

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user Andrew
And the only reason I am sad about the downvote is that it moved my score away from a nice multiple of 5. My personal suggestion is to ignore the scores and focus on which answer gives you the best physical insight. It's totally fine with me if you don't like my answer or want me to clarify something or point to a reference!

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user Andrew
Sorry... I think a relevant point I was forgetting (for the energy conditions) is that in the Newtonian limit, the "energy" and "pressure" parts of the stress energy tensor should go away, and gravity is only sourced by mass. The value of mass certainly matters and is not a torsor. I suspect the energy conditions reduce to saying that mass is positive in the Newtonian limit. But I'll try to think about this some more and maybe edit the answer to clarify this point.

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user Andrew
yes, reduction to the mass being positive was something on my mind. however, I feel like this can't be the whole story - I was thinking that maybe it would be related to some sort of co-ordinate choice (along the lines of 4. of physics.stackexchange.com/a/2856) in defining energy. I guess procedure wise I might have being thinking of interpreting something vaguely like this answer physics.stackexchange.com/a/797344 but I'd have to think more about it

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user qwerty
+ 0 like - 0 dislike

The "zero" of energy can be made to become unimportant in general relativity by combining the divergence equation for the energy-momentum tensor with the balance/divergence equation for particle number (or "amount of substance" in a more macroscopic context).

The steps leading to this are carefully explained in

see comments and footnote 3 after equation (27) there. The same sequence of steps appears in many other relativity texts, but Eckart explicitly comments about this point.

Roughly speaking, what happens is this:

Let's say that the absolute amounts of energy $E$ and of matter (particle number) $N$ are important. Call their fluxes $\pmb{\varPhi}$ and $\pmb{J}$. Let's say they satisfy conservation equations $$ \begin{aligned} \partial_t E &= \partial_i \varPhi^i \ , \\ \partial_t N &= \partial_i J^i \ . \end{aligned} $$

Now we choose an arbitrary zero point in the scale for energy, proportional to the amount of matter: $$E = \rho_0 N + U \ , \qquad \pmb{\varPhi} = \rho_0 \pmb{J} + \pmb{Q} \ , $$ where $\rho_0$ is an arbitrary constant of appropriate physical dimensions. The energy value $\rho_0 N$ acts as a zero point, but it is not an absolute zero, because $U$ can be negative. $U$, typically called "internal energy", is the energy measured with respect to the arbitrary zero point $\rho_0 N$. Similarly for the flux. Note that, for the moment, there's nothing physical about the proportionality equations above, because $U$ and $\pmb{Q}$ are free and unrelated to $(N,\pmb{J})$. Misner-Thorne-Wheeler remark on this arbitrary division in § 39.3 p. 1069 of Gravitation:

Here the baryon "mass" density $\rho_0$, despite its name, and despite the fact it is sometimes even more misleadingly called "density of rest mass-energy," is actually a measure of the number density of baryons $n$, and nothing more. It is defined as the product of $n$ with some standard figure for the mass per baryon, $\mu_0$, in some well-defined standard state; thus, $\rho_0 \equiv n \mu_0$.

See also their discussion about "internal energy density" in that chapter and in other parts of their book.

Replacing this proportionality in the conservation for energy we get $$ \rho_0 \partial_t N + \partial_t U = \rho_0 \partial_i J^i + \partial_i Q^i \ ; $$ but taking into account the conservation for matter this can be simplified to $$ \partial_t U = \partial_i Q^i \ . $$ This is an equation of conservation of internal energy, and because of the definition of $U$, we can add any constant to it as we like: this is equivalent to redefining $\rho_0$.

In a manner of speaking, we have divided energy arbitrarily into two parts: one proportional (by a constant) to matter, and which is conserved because matter is conserved; and one that reckons energy with respect to the arbitrary zero set aside in the first part. This second part is also conserved because of conservation of energy, but it appears to be about a "non-absolute" quantity, just because the division between the two parts is arbitrary.

In general relativity the division is such that the first term $c^2$ times larger than the second. So in a first approximation the second can be neglected. This is more or less how "mass" and its conservation come about in Newtonian mechanics; from the point of view of general relativity it takes care of the "absolute part" of energy, as sketched above. Related to this topic is also the theory of "post-Newtonian" approximations; see for instance

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user pglpm
answered Jan 5 by pglpm (350 points) [ no revision ]
Eckart's seminal paper addresses fluids within Special Relativity rather than General Relativity. As I understand it, the question is asking to approach the topic from the perspective of General Relativity (because it's already clear that "zero point" is inconsequential in Special Relativity).

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user Quillo
@Quillo The first sections of Eckart's are valid also in general relativity, despite his mentioning a Minkowski metric. You can indeed find the same steps e.g. in Gourgoulhon's 3+1 Formalism in General Relativity. The steps show how a zero point mathematically disappears, whether it's important for the theory or not.

This post imported from StackExchange Physics at 2025-01-21 21:34 (UTC), posted by SE-user pglpm

Your answer

Please use answers only to (at least partly) answer questions. To comment, discuss, or ask for clarification, leave a comment instead.
To mask links under text, please type your text, highlight it, and click the "link" button. You can then enter your link URL.
Please consult the FAQ for as to how to format your post.
This is the answer box; if you want to write a comment instead, please use the 'add comment' button.
Live preview (may slow down editor)   Preview
Your name to display (optional):
Privacy: Your email address will only be used for sending these notifications.
Anti-spam verification:
If you are a human please identify the position of the character covered by the symbol $\varnothing$ in the following word:
p$\hbar$ysicsOver$\varnothing$low
Then drag the red bullet below over the corresponding character of our banner. When you drop it there, the bullet changes to green (on slow internet connections after a few seconds).
Please complete the anti-spam verification




user contributions licensed under cc by-sa 3.0 with attribution required

Your rights
...