Quantcast
  • Register
PhysicsOverflow is a next-generation academic platform for physicists and astronomers, including a community peer review system and a postgraduate-level discussion forum analogous to MathOverflow.

Welcome to PhysicsOverflow! PhysicsOverflow is an open platform for community peer review and graduate-level Physics discussion.

Please help promote PhysicsOverflow ads elsewhere if you like it.

News

PO is now at the Physics Department of Bielefeld University!

New printer friendly PO pages!

Migration to Bielefeld University was successful!

Please vote for this year's PhysicsOverflow ads!

Please do help out in categorising submissions. Submit a paper to PhysicsOverflow!

... see more

Tools for paper authors

Submit paper
Claim Paper Authorship

Tools for SE users

Search User
Reclaim SE Account
Request Account Merger
Nativise imported posts
Claim post (deleted users)
Import SE post

Users whose questions have been imported from Physics Stack Exchange, Theoretical Physics Stack Exchange, or any other Stack Exchange site are kindly requested to reclaim their account and not to register as a new user.

Public \(\beta\) tools

Report a bug with a feature
Request a new functionality
404 page design
Send feedback

Attributions

(propose a free ad)

Site Statistics

206 submissions , 164 unreviewed
5,103 questions , 2,249 unanswered
5,355 answers , 22,798 comments
1,470 users with positive rep
820 active unimported users
More ...

  Why does charge conservation due to gauge symmetry only hold on-shell?

+ 8 like - 0 dislike
2097 views

While deriving Noether's theorem or the generator(and hence conserved current) for a continuous symmetry, we work modulo the assumption that the field equations hold. Considering the case of gauge symmetry: to my understanding, it's a redundancy in the "formulation" of a theory itself. So, shouldn't it lead to quantities which are conserved irrespective of whether the field equations hold?

This post has been migrated from (A51.SE)
asked Oct 20, 2011 in Theoretical Physics by Siva (720 points) [ no revision ]
retagged Mar 7, 2014 by dimension10
Yes. In fact, that's precisely what happens if you try and go through applying Noether's theorem to a gauge symmetry. You obtain that the conservation is off-shell too.

This post has been migrated from (A51.SE)
@genneth: Why don't you post your comment as an answer?

This post has been migrated from (A51.SE)
In Classical Electrodynamics a charge $q$ is defined to be constant whatever happens to the particle. Of course, the motion equations are compatible and should be compatible with this definition. There is no physical symmetry behind it. Of course, one can invent equations incompatible with the charge conservation, for example, a diffusion equation with a sink. If no sinks/sources are implemented, the charge will be conserved.

This post has been migrated from (A51.SE)
One can express $\frac{dq}{dt}$ from the equations. If you use the true solutions in such expression, the charge will not depend on time. If you put arbitrary functions of time in this expression, there is no guarantee that $\frac{dq}{dt}=0$. Off-shell "solutions" may have such a drawback.

This post has been migrated from (A51.SE)

1 Answer

+ 2 like - 0 dislike

Whether your current $j^\mu$ is conserved off-shell depends on your definition of $j^\mu$. If you define it via the Dirac and other charged fields, it will only be conserved assuming the equations of motion.

However, if you define $j^\mu$ via $$ j^\mu = \partial^\nu F_{\mu\nu}, $$ i.e. as a function of the electromagnetic field and its derivatives, then $\partial_\mu j^\mu=0$ holds tautologically because it is $$\partial_\mu j^\mu= \partial_\mu\partial_\nu F^{\mu\nu} =0$$ which vanishes because the $\mu\nu$-symmetric second derivatives are applied to a $\mu\nu$-antisymmetric field strength tensor. The possibility to make the local conservation law tautological is indeed linked to the existence of a gauge symmetry. Why? Because it's the equation of motion one may derive from variations of the fields that are equivalent to gauge transformations: the vanishing of the variation of the action under such variations is guaranteed even without the equations of motion, by the gauge symmetry, so the corresponding combination of the currents, $\partial_\mu j^\mu$, has to vanish identically.

This logic also guarantees that the Dirac and other charged field coupled to electromagnetism will have equations of motion that guarantee the local charge conservation.

An analogous statement exists in the case of the diffeomorphism symmetry: $$\nabla_\mu G^{\mu\nu} = 0$$ also holds tautologically for the Einstein tensor $G$ defined in terms of the metric tensor and its derivatives.

This post has been migrated from (A51.SE)
answered Oct 20, 2011 by Luboš Motl (10,278 points) [ no revision ]
There is at least a stretch in your "proof" (tautology=gauge invariance). The equation $j=\partial F$ is not a definition of a charge but that of fields. So one can easily write down a $j$ incompatible with charge conservation. ;-)

This post has been migrated from (A51.SE)
Ah, okay. So charge conservation just reproduces (Bianchi) identities and then we can use the field equations to get it's implications for the source fields. Thanks @Lubos!

This post has been migrated from (A51.SE)

Your answer

Please use answers only to (at least partly) answer questions. To comment, discuss, or ask for clarification, leave a comment instead.
To mask links under text, please type your text, highlight it, and click the "link" button. You can then enter your link URL.
Please consult the FAQ for as to how to format your post.
This is the answer box; if you want to write a comment instead, please use the 'add comment' button.
Live preview (may slow down editor)   Preview
Your name to display (optional):
Privacy: Your email address will only be used for sending these notifications.
Anti-spam verification:
If you are a human please identify the position of the character covered by the symbol $\varnothing$ in the following word:
p$\hbar$ysicsOve$\varnothing$flow
Then drag the red bullet below over the corresponding character of our banner. When you drop it there, the bullet changes to green (on slow internet connections after a few seconds).
Please complete the anti-spam verification




user contributions licensed under cc by-sa 3.0 with attribution required

Your rights
...